I loved it. It pressed all the right buttons for me (especially the Anne McCaffrey bits) and will probably do more for environmental and human rights awareness to a wide audience(in a very general sense) then any piece of political agitprop I’ve seen from any lobby group so far. Pretty? It was gorgeous…I couldn’t see the seams between the r/l shots and the CGI and the little touches like the spectral dust were just magical.
Very Pretty is exactly the review i gave it to my friends, who all know im a sci-fi junkie. The only thing this movie is going to do for sci-fi is all tied up in the phrase “very pretty”. ….. That’s all its got going for it….. But what did you expect from Giant violent space smurfs? A Giant meglomaniacal Gelgamesh?…. Sadly not in this installment…. Waiting for Avatar 2 “Let’s Get Smurfing” and Avatar 3 “Oribtal Bombardment Nuclear Apocolypse”
BTW Steve .. .Alterd Carbon is Being made into a movie!!!!!! Huzzah~~~!
And Richard Have you Played much of Bioshock 2 Yet? Been waiting to see what you think… i’ve only got one bugbear….. You don’t feel like much of a Big Daddy…. Not compared to the first game anyway….
Rich, Deckard’s boss, “This is a bad one.” – they were very new military replicants, Deckard didn’t want to know because he was burnt out, lost his edge and was finding the whole thing morally ambiguous. Thematic complexity.
I’ve said before, I really like Blade Runner (BR, for you reductionists)and have been a fan of the movie ever since seeing it in the theater, lo those many years ago. I have two tattoos directly relating to the thing. And, you’re right; lots of folks, to this day, debate what and what for about that flick. Was Deckard or was he not, that sort of thing. But, all that being said, the movie was deeply flawed and, due in no small part to a disconnect between the principles involved, never really managed to hit the mark, so far as whatever point it was ultimately trying to make. As noir sci-fi, it is hard to beat, but I can watch that flick a hundred times and I will still never come away from it with a concrete notion of just what the fuck was going on there. But, then, maybe that is what draws you to it – ambiguity. But, shit man, even your own anti-heroes eventually wind up with something tangible to hang your hat on, in the final analysis. But (as just one example) a Blade Runner agent who is supposed to be the best ever, who manages to almost get killed by every Replicant he goes after, only to escape, every damn time, through either pure shit luck or the intervention of another..? Right away, you’re forced to wonder if maybe you’re missing something. And, of course, the final scene, with Roy Batty literally hauling his ass from the precipice, because he suddenly finds an inner compassion for living creatures he had heretofore not known… you don’t find that a little, I don’t know, cinematic, perhaps? I certainly came away feeling it to be just the least bit contrived.
But, you know what, none of this, in any way, deflates the emotional impact for me. For years, when I had thought I would actually desire such a thing, I wanted these words on my tombstone – “I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe.. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.”
So, maybe I’m easy. Maybe these contrivances and obvious attempts to pluck at my heart strings are something you find comtemptible, for whatever hard-hearted reason, but one of the most compelling reasons for me to want to see AVATAR more than once was not how pretty it was – though it was certainly that – but how it touched me emotionally. Yeah, he borrowed and possibly even plagiarized a few ideas here and there, but that is just the nature of the beast. A greater writer than you (John D MacDonald)[which I don't mean as a slam], once said, in an interview, that there are, in truth, only five basic story lines, which he went on to name. Everything else, he said, is just an extension of those. So, in the end, even you have done little more than rearrange a plot line and shown a different light on it. I recall, in fact, how many people (myself included) compared your first book and character to any number of fifties-ish gumshoes and the like. Case in point, as it were.
So, I say again. AVATAR is not Shakespeare, nor is it intended to be, for which I, at least, am grateful. But, if you are willing to accept the premise and allow yourself to be immersed in the story, however hackneyed you might consider it, there is a veritable cornucopia of goodies to be found within its confines.
But, you know, my guess would be that nothing I say here is ever going to rearrange your thought patterns on this subject. On the other hand, if we all liked the same thing… well, I shudder to think.
Vive la difference. Hey, what? [or whatever the hell that thing is you English folk say)
I think the argument here is missing the main point. Bladerunner was a movie stuffed full of fascinating concepts at both at a visual and a narrative level. You can (and I have done this many times) talk late into the night about the story, the characters, the themes, the visual texture, the world-building etc….. In other words, Bladerunner has substance.
The only thing you’re likely to talk about with Avatar is the visual effects, the sheer tech brilliance of the execution, and beyond saluting that brilliance, what else is there to say? Meanwhile, there are no characters to speak of, they’re clunky archetypes one and all. The script is a creaking mass of cliches and the story is a dumbed-down didactic kid’s-hour cartoon. The world building, for all the immense amount of intellectual work that apparently went into it, actually makes no sense at all. Plus pretty much everything in terms of narrative impact has been strip-mined out of some previous chunk of Cameron’s ouevre, or some other accomplished widescreen gem (eg, with breathtakingly blatant theft, Michael Mann’s Last of The Mohicans). What very little substance there is to Avatar, is completely second hand.
I should make clear at this point that I’m a huge fan of Cameron’s work and have a great deal of respect for both his writing and his direction. But in this case….? Let’s be honest. Has this film advanced the cinematic form in the technical field? Yes, without question. Is Avatar deserving of some awards? Absolutely. Best special effects, certainly; best director too, probably. But best drama? Come on!
The conversational buzz about Bladerunner, both in and out of genre, has lasted for almost three decades, and it has covered almost every aspect of the movie from its underlying themes to its visual texture; people still write opinion pieces referencing it in the mainstream press today, it has entered the cultural consciousness whole.
The buzz about Avatar, is about a single thing – the technical brilliance of the SFX – and it’s going to last precisely as long as it takes to bring out the next very pretty 3D SFX extravaganza.
You do also have an Excellent point Rich, but making translations from book to film too exact is generally why they fail. The Books almost never work as movies… only some of the concepts. And movies almost never work as (Good)books.
The thing that Really shat me to tear with Avatar compared to BR is Just how fucking Preachy it came across….. A Moral grey line WOULDN’T Have hurt…..
But they both had simillar tales to tell about the Industrailisation of Planets and the abuse of New Resources..
Neal: Bladerunner did tell an excellent story but for me so did did Avatar, although the story was a very different one and told for a different purpose and for a current audience.
There are or course the commercial considerations: BR wasn’t a commercial success on release…it was only years afterwards that the video / DVD sales made it money. The budget that Cameron was working on was huge compared to BR (which in its time was huge) and it had to be a commercial success, no question – and this means appealing to the LCD audience. I was impressed that he could do that and make it appealing to SF fans too (well me) who could enjoy all the gorgeousness, (My favourite part of the film was when the doctor? grabbed what looked like a hologram and held it in his hand), the Sigourney Weaver reverse Aliens references…the Anne Mc Caffery dragon thing…the Darfur / Brazilian native parallels. All this may have been too obvious to you, but in my book, if we can get kids who don’t give a shit about the planet in general to watch this movie and think to themselves (probably very slowly) yeahhh…that’s like what’s happening in Brazil..then it’s a win.
Erm, so that’s why I liked the film together with the gorgeousness.
Actually, the Bladerunner story line wasn’t any better. Don’t get me wrong; I loved the movie, warts and all (have the Special Edition Blue Ray, with all three versions), but the story line was every bit as weak as everyone is accusing AVATAR’s of being, if not more so. And, really, about the only thing it had in common with the novella it was supposedly based on is the name of the main character.
Not sure why everyone wants to be so harsh to this movie and/or Jim Cameron, but I really enjoyed it(3 times) and have every intention of buying the Special Edition Blu Ray when it comes out.
IF that makes me a loser, then so be it. But, truth be told, I bet I could rag just as harshly on any movie anyone on here could name. Doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the end, though. People will like what they like, for whatever reasons suit them. And, when all is said and done, Jim was right. He made a movie that people wanted to see.. and just a whole bunch of them more than once. Is it Shakespeare? No. But I never liked Shakespeare any-damn-way. Okay, with the exception of Taming of the Shrew – but then, that was only because of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. Otherwise, you can keep all of it.
Of course, this is just my opinion. Which, of course, is my point.
Well typed Neal, Bladerunner was an excellent story – as a movie and a book….. Great example of how to get on with the translation from written word to film, Still in my top 5 sci-flicks…. But hey theres nothing wrong with being the prettiest thing around…. if more sci-flicks were that fucking breath-takingly beautiful they might not have to butcher so many sci-fi classics…..
Still annoyed that 2 of the bigger moments in the recent sci-flick were watered down versions of events in brilliant novels… Star Trek’s Planet Devouring Singularity…… Straight outta Dan Simmons’ Hyperion….. And the Bioshpere of Avatar…. Well… just go read Illium and Olypus by the same, previously mentioned author…. And considering both of those series of novels are getting the big screen treatment…. well…. we’ll see i guess…..
And while im at it, a year is far too long a wait to get my grubby hands on TDC… i wanna sniff that new book smell right …. now…
Hey, a sensible discussion of the merits (or otherwise!) of Avatar on the internets!
@Rich
Unfortunately, being 3 when it was released, I didn’t see Bladerunner at the flicks until a couple of years ago.
But – as anonymous points out earlier – my understanding is that it wasn’t as though the film found immediate success. More of a slow burner? You can correct me if I’m wrong here – I really don’t know.
I think that this is what puts me off seeing Avatar, it’s already been a massive success (even accounting for the higher price of tickets and general ticket price inflation when comparing it to past movies). It’s not the success that I’m knocking, it’s more that I get the impression that a lot of people are seeing it out of curiosity. Apparently it’s a better use of 3-D than pretty much anything that’s come before. The film has been hyped as the future of cinema, but I just can’t bring myself to see it because I suspect I’ll be pissed off by it (not least because I don’t think that Cameron’s done anything worthwhile for years), but also because, amongst the least breathless anyway, even those that like it do tend to concede that the story is fairly lame and obvious.
What I think I’m driving at, is that I’m sure that anybody who likes music, film or books has had that record (say) that, at first, they didn’t “get” but over time has grown on them eventually becoming a favourite. On a wider cultural level, I think that’s what has happened with Bladerunner. It was, of course, a fairly big-budget and high profile film, but it’s growth in popularity seems to be fairly organic at least. Avatar, however was successful before it came out (so it seemed). So will it really sink into folks consciousness in the same way as Bladerunner did?
Anyway, enough of my crazy rambling, should probably get some sleep (in fact, this would probably make more sense after sleep…no matter)!
One last thing though, Rich, kudos to you (and I mean this) for being someone who liked the film but doesn’t feel the need to go into tedious thought-terminating cliche mode if someone has the temerity to say they didn’t really enjoy/didn’t fancy it!
Funny, that. Some of my friends saw it in 3d, others in 2D. While they worded their opinion the same way, the order varied. “It’s beautiful… but so boring.” “It’s boring… but so beautiful.” I saxw it in 3D (which usually elicited the latter comment), and was quite impressed at the planning out of shots. The leaves and grass and butterflies zooming in and out… I’d expected a bunch of Jaws 3D gimmicks with aliens and missiles leaping at you, but no, the use of 3D was more interesting than that. I fear I would have wept if I hadd seen it in 2D.
Hey, I’m happy… I am in both camps at once! I love Blade Runner and I also loved Avatar… for completely different reasons, admittedly, but the enjoyment is still valid!
I agree that Avatar is basically a shallow vehicle for Cameron’s special effects and yes it is just a retelling of Pocahontas and all that, but ultimately it was a decent sci-fi romp with some kick-ass special effects. Me and my chums came out yabbering excitedly about it as we left… and so did my girlfriend, amazingly.
One thing I still haven’t been sold on is the 3D. I was curious as to how well it would work and it was okay, but to be honest I think it would have worked as well or better in 2D. I’m still to be sold on the idea of 3D cinema.
I hate Bladerunner with a passion. I find it overstuffed and verbose and many, many other things that don’t belong in any written form. And I’ve tried to see all the versions they released of it, in the hope that maybe, maybe, the intented masterpiece had been butchered somehow. I saw no evidence of that. But at least there is something to hate. Writer and director did something. At least it’s a work of art. A work of art I can’t stand, but that I can at least respect, since the authors had something to say and the skill to say it. Avatar made me sigh. For three hours. And face-palm a few times. And tilt my head wide-eyed in disbelief. I remember the mother of all butt-aches during the credits. And Vasquez is cooler. I’d seen all three Lord of the Rings movie in exactly the same seat. Pain-less, curiously. The worst being of course that Cameron, Like Lucas on SW 1-2-3, could have just easily posted a note on any site, saying « hey chums, we have no intention of paying you, but write a script for the movies, and we’ll shoot the best one, then write your name in big ol’ letters on the silver screen. » The point being, Cameron could have had a (better) scenario for free. Or even less, maybe. So let him roll out the 30-something minute video he showed to the press. As a technical demo, that will do. There’s nothing more to expect. Oh. Must have had that on my chest for a while…
/Rant off. Pardon the possibly erratic spelling, I’m a frigging Frog.
A late post to the topic. I just watched Avatar on my laptop (yeah a knock of copy but the nearest theater from where I am at is most likely in Iran, I promise to buy a copy when I can to atone for the mis deed). Since the quality on my laptop was mediocre at best and certainly didn’t provide the 3D or even high end 2D, I think I focused on the story. Well all I could tell from the story line was that European settlers in North America should not have systematically killed the natives. It was a bad thing to do. I think I knew that before watching Avatar. The only twist was that it made me think about- What if Geronimo would have came out of the dessert and wiped the white man out and sent him packing back to Europe? I will check out the 3D stuff when I return to the land of theaters. Then I can add “very pretty” to my take on Avatar. Now I am going to kick back and finish reading Anathem. That Neal Stephenson guy sure knows how to write. Jim
I read most of the comments here before seeing Avatar and now tend to go along with my wife’s attitude – treat it as a piece of entertainment that has no deeper meaning. That said, I thought it was a pity that they didn’t make more of a deal of the whole “permanent identity transfer” thing which would have actually made it into a genuine SF film. That concept had the possibility providing the type societal change that Alterered Carbon introduced with cortical stacks. I ran across a statement somewhere that most SF films are really some other genre set in space and Avatar was no exception.
Okay, so it’s been done before, but here’s another one:
Gasp! Intelligent discussion? On the internet? And here I thought the sum total of early 21st Century web culture ran to flame wars and endless homophobia and racism spooling out underneath old Shabba Ranks videos on Youtube. On, and Gerard Butler’s face (If you wanted to write an essay on the conception and transmission of memes, I reckon you could do a lot worse than “This. Is. SPARTA!”) Anyway, I digress.
On a more relevant note, has anyone come across this?
A few comparisons made there that I haven’t come across anywhere else before.
Just seen the post date and realised that I’m probably a little late to this particular party, but fuck it, I’ve written it now.
Oh, and Altered Carbon? Bloody brilliant. The week after I read it, I bought half a dozen copies and forced them on my friends and relatives. Made them buy their own damn copies of Broken Angels though.
Conventional, boring and unimaginative retelling of the old story of pocahontas in the form of one of the more expensive movies of our time. Generation Playstation effects or narrative dont make a good picture for me, sorry. Is clear James Cameron has not taken any risky either in the form or the execution.
Is an insult for those of us who write science fiction profesionally and for anyone that read it for that extend.
Nothing more to say. You should speak what you really think Richard. A salute from Spain.
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Was that the IMAX version, or the other one?
For the uneducated who stumble about your site, shouldn’t you be defining the avatar?
I define it as the incarnation of the human form.
Am I to believe as your psychatrist you are contemplating relations with an alien life form?
They are, in fact, at least smarter than the average human.
“Very pretty” isn’t the word I would have expected. Glamorous, voluptuous, exotic, enticing.
“Very pretty” sounds too much like the girl next door or the chick from Bridget Jone’s Diary.
Far too generous.
I wasn’t going to go and see it till I read this!
Shame About The Fucking Awful Plot And Music.
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard you use words like “very pretty”. Not sure how to read between the lines.
Linda
3D made that movie worth the effort.
It is probably the “wave” of the future.
Unfortunately that just means more movies like Foundation (being made by Roland Emmerich) will be “very pretty” and less awesome story.
Well, come to think of it, most successful and widely admired films have nonsensical plots, right?
Star Wars, for example. Same goes for literary works.
Internal self-consistency is very hard to achieve, and most people won’t even notice, so why strive for it?
It’s a shame about the dialogues. Could’ve been a much better film, were they wittier.
Apparently, Jim misread his audience again.
Or not.
God I wish they would make movies out of your Takeshi Kovacs novels…
I loved it. It pressed all the right buttons for me (especially the Anne McCaffrey bits) and will probably do more for environmental and human rights awareness to a wide audience(in a very general sense) then any piece of political agitprop I’ve seen from any lobby group so far. Pretty? It was gorgeous…I couldn’t see the seams between the r/l shots and the CGI and the little touches like the spectral dust were just magical.
I’d put it up there with Bladerunner.
Ravs
Lately I’ve kind of get the impression that James Cameron just isn’t trying anymore.
Titanic told him that people would spend great stacks of money on any old crud and he’s been slacking off ever since.
Very Pretty is exactly the review i gave it to my friends, who all know im a sci-fi junkie. The only thing this movie is going to do for sci-fi is all tied up in the phrase “very pretty”. ….. That’s all its got going for it….. But what did you expect from Giant violent space smurfs? A Giant meglomaniacal Gelgamesh?…. Sadly not in this installment…. Waiting for Avatar 2 “Let’s Get Smurfing” and Avatar 3 “Oribtal Bombardment Nuclear Apocolypse”
BTW Steve .. .Alterd Carbon is Being made into a movie!!!!!! Huzzah~~~!
And Richard Have you Played much of Bioshock 2 Yet? Been waiting to see what you think… i’ve only got one bugbear….. You don’t feel like much of a Big Daddy…. Not compared to the first game anyway….
Smoke on ~ Freeman
Every woman should experience a Jim. It empowers them to move above and beyond.
Unless, of course, Jim told them they were the greatest, and a some others don’t agree.
I agree it was probably Jim. He thinks he knows everything, but he doesn’t.
It was wasn’t it.
So James Cameron is writing an “epic” Avatar novel. What do you suppose that means, really?
Thank you Richard (M) – you nailed it.
Rich, Deckard’s boss, “This is a bad one.” – they were very new military replicants, Deckard didn’t want to know because he was burnt out, lost his edge and was finding the whole thing morally ambiguous. Thematic complexity.
Avatar: http://autotelic.com/avatar_-_the_metacontextual_edition
Okay, Rich, here’s what I think.
I’ve said before, I really like Blade Runner (BR, for you reductionists)and have been a fan of the movie ever since seeing it in the theater, lo those many years ago. I have two tattoos directly relating to the thing. And, you’re right; lots of folks, to this day, debate what and what for about that flick. Was Deckard or was he not, that sort of thing. But, all that being said, the movie was deeply flawed and, due in no small part to a disconnect between the principles involved, never really managed to hit the mark, so far as whatever point it was ultimately trying to make. As noir sci-fi, it is hard to beat, but I can watch that flick a hundred times and I will still never come away from it with a concrete notion of just what the fuck was going on there. But, then, maybe that is what draws you to it – ambiguity. But, shit man, even your own anti-heroes eventually wind up with something tangible to hang your hat on, in the final analysis. But (as just one example) a Blade Runner agent who is supposed to be the best ever, who manages to almost get killed by every Replicant he goes after, only to escape, every damn time, through either pure shit luck or the intervention of another..? Right away, you’re forced to wonder if maybe you’re missing something. And, of course, the final scene, with Roy Batty literally hauling his ass from the precipice, because he suddenly finds an inner compassion for living creatures he had heretofore not known… you don’t find that a little, I don’t know, cinematic, perhaps? I certainly came away feeling it to be just the least bit contrived.
But, you know what, none of this, in any way, deflates the emotional impact for me. For years, when I had thought I would actually desire such a thing, I wanted these words on my tombstone – “I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe.. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.”
So, maybe I’m easy. Maybe these contrivances and obvious attempts to pluck at my heart strings are something you find comtemptible, for whatever hard-hearted reason, but one of the most compelling reasons for me to want to see AVATAR more than once was not how pretty it was – though it was certainly that – but how it touched me emotionally. Yeah, he borrowed and possibly even plagiarized a few ideas here and there, but that is just the nature of the beast. A greater writer than you (John D MacDonald)[which I don't mean as a slam], once said, in an interview, that there are, in truth, only five basic story lines, which he went on to name. Everything else, he said, is just an extension of those. So, in the end, even you have done little more than rearrange a plot line and shown a different light on it. I recall, in fact, how many people (myself included) compared your first book and character to any number of fifties-ish gumshoes and the like. Case in point, as it were.
So, I say again. AVATAR is not Shakespeare, nor is it intended to be, for which I, at least, am grateful. But, if you are willing to accept the premise and allow yourself to be immersed in the story, however hackneyed you might consider it, there is a veritable cornucopia of goodies to be found within its confines.
But, you know, my guess would be that nothing I say here is ever going to rearrange your thought patterns on this subject. On the other hand, if we all liked the same thing… well, I shudder to think.
Vive la difference. Hey, what? [or whatever the hell that thing is you English folk say)
I think the argument here is missing the main point. Bladerunner was a movie stuffed full of fascinating concepts at both at a visual and a narrative level. You can (and I have done this many times) talk late into the night about the story, the characters, the themes, the visual texture, the world-building etc….. In other words, Bladerunner has substance.
The only thing you’re likely to talk about with Avatar is the visual effects, the sheer tech brilliance of the execution, and beyond saluting that brilliance, what else is there to say? Meanwhile, there are no characters to speak of, they’re clunky archetypes one and all. The script is a creaking mass of cliches and the story is a dumbed-down didactic kid’s-hour cartoon. The world building, for all the immense amount of intellectual work that apparently went into it, actually makes no sense at all. Plus pretty much everything in terms of narrative impact has been strip-mined out of some previous chunk of Cameron’s ouevre, or some other accomplished widescreen gem (eg, with breathtakingly blatant theft, Michael Mann’s Last of The Mohicans). What very little substance there is to Avatar, is completely second hand.
I should make clear at this point that I’m a huge fan of Cameron’s work and have a great deal of respect for both his writing and his direction. But in this case….? Let’s be honest. Has this film advanced the cinematic form in the technical field? Yes, without question. Is Avatar deserving of some awards? Absolutely. Best special effects, certainly; best director too, probably. But best drama? Come on!
The conversational buzz about Bladerunner, both in and out of genre, has lasted for almost three decades, and it has covered almost every aspect of the movie from its underlying themes to its visual texture; people still write opinion pieces referencing it in the mainstream press today, it has entered the cultural consciousness whole.
The buzz about Avatar, is about a single thing – the technical brilliance of the SFX – and it’s going to last precisely as long as it takes to bring out the next very pretty 3D SFX extravaganza.
There simply is no case for comparison.
You do also have an Excellent point Rich, but making translations from book to film too exact is generally why they fail. The Books almost never work as movies… only some of the concepts. And movies almost never work as (Good)books.
The thing that Really shat me to tear with Avatar compared to BR is Just how fucking Preachy it came across….. A Moral grey line WOULDN’T Have hurt…..
But they both had simillar tales to tell about the Industrailisation of Planets and the abuse of New Resources..
Anyway…. Peace~ Freeman
Neal: Bladerunner did tell an excellent story but for me so did did Avatar, although the story was a very different one and told for a different purpose and for a current audience.
There are or course the commercial considerations: BR wasn’t a commercial success on release…it was only years afterwards that the video / DVD sales made it money. The budget that Cameron was working on was huge compared to BR (which in its time was huge) and it had to be a commercial success, no question – and this means appealing to the LCD audience. I was impressed that he could do that and make it appealing to SF fans too (well me) who could enjoy all the gorgeousness, (My favourite part of the film was when the doctor? grabbed what looked like a hologram and held it in his hand), the Sigourney Weaver reverse Aliens references…the Anne Mc Caffery dragon thing…the Darfur / Brazilian native parallels. All this may have been too obvious to you, but in my book, if we can get kids who don’t give a shit about the planet in general to watch this movie and think to themselves (probably very slowly) yeahhh…that’s like what’s happening in Brazil..then it’s a win.
Erm, so that’s why I liked the film together with the gorgeousness.
Actually, the Bladerunner story line wasn’t any better. Don’t get me wrong; I loved the movie, warts and all (have the Special Edition Blue Ray, with all three versions), but the story line was every bit as weak as everyone is accusing AVATAR’s of being, if not more so. And, really, about the only thing it had in common with the novella it was supposedly based on is the name of the main character.
Not sure why everyone wants to be so harsh to this movie and/or Jim Cameron, but I really enjoyed it(3 times) and have every intention of buying the Special Edition Blu Ray when it comes out.
IF that makes me a loser, then so be it. But, truth be told, I bet I could rag just as harshly on any movie anyone on here could name. Doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the end, though. People will like what they like, for whatever reasons suit them. And, when all is said and done, Jim was right. He made a movie that people wanted to see.. and just a whole bunch of them more than once. Is it Shakespeare? No. But I never liked Shakespeare any-damn-way. Okay, with the exception of Taming of the Shrew – but then, that was only because of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. Otherwise, you can keep all of it.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
Which, of course, is my point.
Well typed Neal, Bladerunner was an excellent story – as a movie and a book….. Great example of how to get on with the translation from written word to film, Still in my top 5 sci-flicks…. But hey theres nothing wrong with being the prettiest thing around…. if more sci-flicks were that fucking breath-takingly beautiful they might not have to butcher so many sci-fi classics…..
Still annoyed that 2 of the bigger moments in the recent sci-flick were watered down versions of events in brilliant novels… Star Trek’s Planet Devouring Singularity…… Straight outta Dan Simmons’ Hyperion….. And the Bioshpere of Avatar…. Well… just go read Illium and Olypus by the same, previously mentioned author…. And considering both of those series of novels are getting the big screen treatment…. well…. we’ll see i guess…..
And while im at it, a year is far too long a wait to get my grubby hands on TDC… i wanna sniff that new book smell right …. now…
Keep Jive Talkin’ ~~~ Freeman
Mmmm except Blade Runner told an excellent story.
Hey, a sensible discussion of the merits (or otherwise!) of Avatar on the internets!
@Rich
Unfortunately, being 3 when it was released, I didn’t see Bladerunner at the flicks until a couple of years ago.
But – as anonymous points out earlier – my understanding is that it wasn’t as though the film found immediate success. More of a slow burner? You can correct me if I’m wrong here – I really don’t know.
I think that this is what puts me off seeing Avatar, it’s already been a massive success (even accounting for the higher price of tickets and general ticket price inflation when comparing it to past movies). It’s not the success that I’m knocking, it’s more that I get the impression that a lot of people are seeing it out of curiosity. Apparently it’s a better use of 3-D than pretty much anything that’s come before. The film has been hyped as the future of cinema, but I just can’t bring myself to see it because I suspect I’ll be pissed off by it (not least because I don’t think that Cameron’s done anything worthwhile for years), but also because, amongst the least breathless anyway, even those that like it do tend to concede that the story is fairly lame and obvious.
What I think I’m driving at, is that I’m sure that anybody who likes music, film or books has had that record (say) that, at first, they didn’t “get” but over time has grown on them eventually becoming a favourite. On a wider cultural level, I think that’s what has happened with Bladerunner. It was, of course, a fairly big-budget and high profile film, but it’s growth in popularity seems to be fairly organic at least. Avatar, however was successful before it came out (so it seemed). So will it really sink into folks consciousness in the same way as Bladerunner did?
Anyway, enough of my crazy rambling, should probably get some sleep (in fact, this would probably make more sense after sleep…no matter)!
One last thing though, Rich, kudos to you (and I mean this) for being someone who liked the film but doesn’t feel the need to go into tedious thought-terminating cliche mode if someone has the temerity to say they didn’t really enjoy/didn’t fancy it!
One last word. Some of you folks really need to read the true history of Pocahontas.
Funny, that. Some of my friends saw it in 3d, others in 2D. While they worded their opinion the same way, the order varied.
“It’s beautiful… but so boring.”
“It’s boring… but so beautiful.”
I saxw it in 3D (which usually elicited the latter comment), and was quite impressed at the planning out of shots. The leaves and grass and butterflies zooming in and out… I’d expected a bunch of Jaws 3D gimmicks with aliens and missiles leaping at you, but no, the use of 3D was more interesting than that. I fear I would have wept if I hadd seen it in 2D.
Hey, I’m happy… I am in both camps at once! I love Blade Runner and I also loved Avatar… for completely different reasons, admittedly, but the enjoyment is still valid!
I agree that Avatar is basically a shallow vehicle for Cameron’s special effects and yes it is just a retelling of Pocahontas and all that, but ultimately it was a decent sci-fi romp with some kick-ass special effects. Me and my chums came out yabbering excitedly about it as we left… and so did my girlfriend, amazingly.
One thing I still haven’t been sold on is the 3D. I was curious as to how well it would work and it was okay, but to be honest I think it would have worked as well or better in 2D. I’m still to be sold on the idea of 3D cinema.
I hate Bladerunner with a passion. I find it overstuffed and verbose and many, many other things that don’t belong in any written form. And I’ve tried to see all the versions they released of it, in the hope that maybe, maybe, the intented masterpiece had been butchered somehow.
I saw no evidence of that.
But at least there is something to hate. Writer and director did something. At least it’s a work of art. A work of art I can’t stand, but that I can at least respect, since the authors had something to say and the skill to say it.
Avatar made me sigh. For three hours. And face-palm a few times. And tilt my head wide-eyed in disbelief. I remember the mother of all butt-aches during the credits. And Vasquez is cooler.
I’d seen all three Lord of the Rings movie in exactly the same seat. Pain-less, curiously.
The worst being of course that Cameron, Like Lucas on SW 1-2-3, could have just easily posted a note on any site, saying « hey chums, we have no intention of paying you, but write a script for the movies, and we’ll shoot the best one, then write your name in big ol’ letters on the silver screen. »
The point being, Cameron could have had a (better) scenario for free. Or even less, maybe.
So let him roll out the 30-something minute video he showed to the press. As a technical demo, that will do. There’s nothing more to expect.
Oh. Must have had that on my chest for a while…
/Rant off. Pardon the possibly erratic spelling, I’m a frigging Frog.
A late post to the topic. I just watched Avatar on my laptop (yeah a knock of copy but the nearest theater from where I am at is most likely in Iran, I promise to buy a copy when I can to atone for the mis deed). Since the quality on my laptop was mediocre at best and certainly didn’t provide the 3D or even high end 2D, I think I focused on the story. Well all I could tell from the story line was that European settlers in North America should not have systematically killed the natives. It was a bad thing to do. I think I knew that before watching Avatar. The only twist was that it made me think about- What if Geronimo would have came out of the dessert and wiped the white man out and sent him packing back to Europe? I will check out the 3D stuff when I return to the land of theaters. Then I can add “very pretty” to my take on Avatar. Now I am going to kick back and finish reading Anathem. That Neal Stephenson guy sure knows how to write.
Jim
Hear, hear!
The in depth review by Richard is just as deep as the story itself. And they spent hundreds of millions on this one….
I read most of the comments here before seeing Avatar and now tend to go along with my wife’s attitude – treat it as a piece of entertainment that has no deeper meaning. That said, I thought it was a pity that they didn’t make more of a deal of the whole “permanent identity transfer” thing which would have actually made it into a genuine SF film. That concept had the possibility providing the type societal change that Alterered Carbon introduced with cortical stacks. I ran across a statement somewhere that most SF films are really some other genre set in space and Avatar was no exception.
Okay, so it’s been done before, but here’s another one:
Gasp! Intelligent discussion? On the internet? And here I thought the sum total of early 21st Century web culture ran to flame wars and endless homophobia and racism spooling out underneath old Shabba Ranks videos on Youtube. On, and Gerard Butler’s face (If you wanted to write an essay on the conception and transmission of memes, I reckon you could do a lot worse than “This. Is. SPARTA!”) Anyway, I digress.
On a more relevant note, has anyone come across this?
http://www.scifi.darkroastedblend.com/2010/01/10-possible-sources-of-avatar-in.html
A few comparisons made there that I haven’t come across anywhere else before.
Just seen the post date and realised that I’m probably a little late to this particular party, but fuck it, I’ve written it now.
Oh, and Altered Carbon? Bloody brilliant. The week after I read it, I bought half a dozen copies and forced them on my friends and relatives. Made them buy their own damn copies of Broken Angels though.
Conventional, boring and unimaginative retelling of the old story of pocahontas in the form of one of the more expensive movies of our time. Generation Playstation effects or narrative dont make a good picture for me, sorry. Is clear James Cameron has not taken any risky either in the form or the execution.
Is an insult for those of us who write science fiction profesionally and for anyone that read it for that extend.
Nothing more to say. You should speak what you really think Richard. A salute from Spain.
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